Elves

Here's a place to talk about each of the races - which is better, what changes you'd like to see, and just general commentary on each.

How powerful are Elves?

Takes no effort to scrape "elf bits" off my boots.
2
8%
I once saw an elf beat an earthworm in armwrestling.
4
15%
The fireballs singe my nostril hairs...
12
46%
Help! A monster elf is coming! Run for your lives!!
8
31%
 
Total votes: 26
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Divebomb
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Post by Divebomb »

Everyone understands what you're saying Stars. You need to try and really understand what Slart is saying.

It's already been stated multiple times that elves blow through their mana like there's no tomorrow. They run out very very quickly. Knowing this and accepting this, the penalty you introduced of losing all mana after the "shield" drops is not a negative affect. If they have no mana when it drops, they've lost nothing. All you're allowing for is the ability to cast twice as many spells in a set period of time. (It's slightly under half because of the cost of the mana reserve spell). There is still no penalty at all to this spell. It's simply allowing you to kill at twice your normal speed.

Here's another way of looking at it. Going with your storyline behind the spell (drawing the power from the world around you). You're saying the elf just summons all he can and focuses that energy as a reserve. When it becomes unstable he loses it and it returns to whence it came, only to be recycled by the typical sleeping recovery method. What is the difference between the elf focusing all his power to use this spell and not focusing his power at all? Surely in order to focus so much on drawing this power from the world, he must be sacrificing something in return. In order to deal damage to a creatue, the caster must give up some of the power he has attained (mana). In order to heal a fellow player he must give up some of his power (mana). All you're doing is giving him mana for mana. No matter what twist you put on it, the player is getting mana for a sole loss of mana.

I think if you want to push your idea you should add a downfall. Frenzy and berzerk give big damage bonuses to those they are cast on at the penalty of AC. Maybe your elf is focusing SO much on his ability to draw power from the earth that he is unable to manuever so well. Perhaps his dexterity drops by 10 points. Perhaps he no longer has the physical strength to wield a weapon, his strength drops by 10. Perhaps movement will cause him to break his concentration, he must not leave the room he is in. Perhaps he must draw the mana from his life force (the opposite of transform energy), he loses hitpoints. All of these are examples where something is being sacrificed in order to gain something.

Lastly, you made a comment about items that cast sanc. What is the cost because the spells are free? Do you not see it? Which is more convenient? Casting heal/cure light/cure serious/medicine on yourself or running 60 steps to alandra to kill an addict? It will take you less time to recover lost mana for a heal than it will to fetch that healing item. On top of that you have to compete with everyone else after the healing items. Plus you have limited amount of space in which to carry items. Lots of drawbacks. The benefits of scrolls and items are certainly not FREE.
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Post by disaster »

rather than a purely mana-giving spell, i would much rather see a spell that would temporarily increase the max mana a character can accumulate, possibly at some negative affect if it's found to be too powerful. such a spell should have moderate casting cost, last reasonably long, and only increase max mana potential, NOT the current mana one actually has in reserve. thus casting the spell before getting plastered and sleeping it off would allow for an extra reserve to be generated, but would still need traditional methods to fill that reserve.
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Post by Scavenger »

I think that the crux of the matter is that things in BR that increase one stat do so at the benefit of another stat. Sanctuary increases HP at the cost of mana. Giant strength increases strength at the cost of mana. Many items boost one stat and lower another.

The problem with mana reserve is that it increases mana at the cost of, umm, mana...

(Okay, mana reserve doesn't actually increase mana, but sanctuary doesn't actually increase hp either. Work with me here.)

Seems to me the solution is to add a cost of some other stat to mana reserve. Logically it would be hp. Have a sucessful cast of mana reserve lower the caster's hp by a certain amount. And that amount would, of course, be more than the caster could heal using the gained mana. Maybe throw in a stat reduction of some sort to offset using a healer and/or potions.
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Post by Lairian »

Better yet, a buff that when up and the caster doesn't have enough mana, the spell will eat hp in the place of mana, therefor letting us tap into our own vital energy and souls to fuel our spells.

THAT, I could agree, would be nice, and balanced.
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Post by Slart »

Stars wrote:The spell does not create more mana. It reduces the cost of mana for other spells. In every case mana will be lost, sometimes more than others. This may seem like a small distinction, but it is important.
It's not a small distinction. It isn't even a distinction. They're the same thing. If you've got 500 mana, and you get to cast spells that would normally cost you 700 mana, you've "created" 200 more mana for yourself, even if you never see 700/700m in your prompt. Let me paraphrase a scene from "Office Space:"

JOANNA: So you cast a lot of spells?
PETER: Yeah.
JOANNA: And you didn't have enough mana for them all before?
PETER: No.
JOANNA: How is that not creating mana again?
PETER: I don't think I'm explaining this very well.
Stars wrote:Every spell out there gives something in return for casting it. Sanctuary, going by your thinking, gives 1.5 times current hps, right? Those are "free" hp. When sanc is gained from an item, then it is most certainly free. So should we now remove sanctuary from the game? Why do we balk when a spell directly affects our mana?
Sanctuary does give you hit points. I don't dispute that. However, it doesn't cost hit points. It costs mana. You can also turn mana into hit points with a heal spell. This is an accepted tradeoff mechanism in the game. Gaining a spell from an item instead of from mana costs the resources used to obtain that item, whether that's the mana for a teleport, the damage you took killing the mob, or even just the time it took to go get it. That also is an accepted tradeoff mechanism in the game. However, while sanctuary trades mana for hit points, Mana Reserve trades mana for MORE MANA. Where's the tradeoff?
Stars wrote:1. The magic-user looks at her list of magic things to do, and she realizes that she does not have enough mana to accomplish all the tasks. In order to prevent any illtimed mana shortages, she casts Mana Reserve. By drawing on her own power, she summons a temporary magical field around herself that will reduce the cost of mana for other spells. It helps to "reserve" her current mana. It is not easy to concetrate on the field, however. As time goes on, it gets worse and the it dissipates.
She sees that she does not have enough mana to accomplish all the tasks, but then she casts a spell and now she does have enough. What did that miracle cost her? Uh...oh yeah, it was the thing she was short to begin with!
Stars wrote:2. When a spell caster runs out of mana and needs to rest in order regain more mana, where does that mana come from? Maybe it comes from the world around, in the air and earth, or the trees and living creatures. Wherever the magic user gets his mana from, he gets it. When that magic-user casts Mana Reserve, he summons all his mana to draw from that source from which all magic comes from. In doing so, he stores up more energy than he spent in order to tap into that source. But because it requires effort to maintain the "reserve", it cannot be held long. When it disappers, all mana within is lost, sent back to where it came from. Knowing this, the mage heads out on his quest without delay.

By this view, more mana is gained and put into the reserve, but it is never added to the mana total of the magic user. It is not his. He is merely borrowing it. He never actually gains the mana.
"It is not his. He is merely borrowing it."...but he never has to pay it back.

"He never actually gains the mana."...but he does cast spells with it.
Stars wrote:But maybe it wouldn't be so bad to look at it as if mana were gained (going the other way from 1/2 cost to twice current mana). ;) But the elf will always lose this mana, as the second view suggests. So how much is really gained here? None. Indeed, it is all lost.
As another quirk of the spell you could make it so that the elf's mana total goes to 0 when the spell is successfully cast since it is all in the "reserve". In order to see how much mana he has, the elf will need to look at the reserve. Either that or he never knows until it is all gone.
You are walking into Best Buy with $1000 in your pocket. A genie appears before you. He says, "I have a deal for you. If you give me two hundred dollars in cash, I will cast a spell that will reduce the price on everything you buy in this store by fifty percent. However, when you leave the store, all the money you have left will disappear." Being the perspicacious student of mathematics that you are, you immediately agree and hand over the money. The genie casts his spell, and vanishes. You walk immediately into the store and spend $750. On your way out of the store to load up your car with your purchases, you hear a little *poof* from your wallet as your last fifty dollars evaporate. How much is really gained here? What did it cost? I leave these questions as an exercise for the reader.
Stars wrote:Dispel magic would be devastating to the elf of course, since it would destroy the reserve and all the mana within.
Mobs that cast dispel magic are quite rare and, for the most part, easily avoided. That it would be a bad idea to cast this spell before fighting certain mobs is not in itself a cost to the elf in question.
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Post by Stars »

Ok, so I could go with negative fighting abilities. Similar to the way that frenzy/berzerk affects ac, any mana cost reduction would have major penalties to hit and dam. That would be great.

If that is not acceptable, then how about the opposite of transform energy? 100 hp is transformed into 100 mana and so on. The elf cannot die by using this ability, and a message would appear like the feathers for avians. In fact, this version of the skill is surprisingly similar to pluck.
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Post by xorex »

how about the opposite of transform energy? 100 hp is transformed into 100 mana and so on.
i think you still have the problem that an elf could use this with cure serious to create an infinite loop changing hp into mana and then healing back. however, this would take time to do plus you might fail sometimes. if you adjusted the ratio you could probably make it balanced but then would it be worth using?
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Post by Stars »

I can see how that might be a problem.

So then what about major penalties to hit/dam? Let's say 1/2 mana cost for 1/2 hit/dam?

Then again, what about the energy drain spell that takes mana instead of hp? Has anyone seen this type of ability in video games?
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Post by Lairian »

Give up 20 hitdam for 1400 mana...

Let me think...

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Post by Stars »

I think of all the ideas so far, I like the energy(mana) drain one the best. I can see no reason why anyone would disapprove of it.
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Post by Lairian »

Again, you're spending mana to get back more mana. Not going to fly.

If you want to kill a mob's mana, use energy drain. It takes off half the target's mana. Granted, diminishing returns as half becomes steadily less and less, but they'll run out.
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Post by Everybody »

No, they probably won't (it'd require at least 7 successful casts of energy drain, depending on whether we round up or down when you hit a half - and if we round up, they'll always have at least 1 mana). And I'm not sure if it'd do any good even if you could reduce them to zero, since when mobs cast spells, it doesn't cost them mana.
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Post by Stars »

I don't really care if I take a mob's mana. We need to find some other way to regain mana without drinking alcohol.

Energy(mana) drain could be a skill, not a spell. Why would it need to cost any mana to use anyway? Perhaps it is a natural ability to drain mana from monsters? That should help you all get over your little "mana for mana" spiel.

I mean, really, why are you so afraid of this? Haven't you ever heard the expression, "you need money to make money"? Please don't cast aside a good idea just because you can't open your minds a little bit.
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Post by Divebomb »

Stars wrote:I don't really care if I take a mob's mana. We need to find some other way to regain mana without drinking alcohol.
Why do we NEED to? Because players need instant gratification? Be grateful there's a method other than sleeping!

[quote = "Stars"]I mean, really, why are you so afraid of this? Haven't you ever heard the expression, "you need money to make money"? Please don't cast aside a good idea just because you can't open your minds a little bit.[/quote]

And I don't appreciate being called close-minded, nor do I bet anyone else does. If you're not going to keep the conversation civil, don't post.
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Post by Everybody »

I'm agreeing with Dive on this. You've haven't presented arguments enough as to why we need a way to regain mana other than drinking to convince me in the least.
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