HP stacking

[Everybody]

I've never seen it to be inconsistent - every time the spell is successfully cast, your alignment goes down 20. What's more consistent than that?

[Stars]

So, even I can whip out a typo now and then. Hehe, take that I say!

It is inconsistEnt because no other spell has alignment changing affects. The other spell that is supposedly evil (death field) requires you to be evil in order to cast. Energy Drain is also inconsistent because good is never represented around here. Where's the love? If you must do this silly thing, then make all spells affect your alignment. ED should not have this affect...or all spells should.

[Anakin]

or maybe healing mobs make your align good! ^_^ Hey not ALL mobs are evil enough that they don't deserve to be healed.

[Divebomb]

So, even I can whip out a typo now and then. Hehe, take that I say!

It is inconsistEnt because no other spell has alignment changing affects. The other spell that is supposedly evil (death field) requires you to be evil in order to cast. Energy Drain is also inconsistent because good is never represented around here. Where's the love? If you must do this silly thing, then make all spells affect your alignment.

Quivering Palm has all the same effects as energy drain. Research before going nuts on the boards.

Even if Energy Drain WAS the only spell that changed alignment, does that make it inherently bad? I'm not understanding the up-in-arms over one of the creative aspects of one of our spells in the game. It's actually a spell that differs from other spells in something besides an echo and the amount of damage. I'm particularly fond of the effects of ED and QP.

ED should not have this affect...or all spells should.

"If one thing does it, then all things should do it". I hope you meant that in jest... Heal cures hitpoints, all spells should cure hitpoints. Fireball causes damage, all spells should cause damage...

[Stars]

I most certainly was not joking.
Quivering palm also makes one evil.
I'll write more when I have more time to write.

[kiri]

I intend to leave it as is, I buy Eb's argument.

[Stars]

We often talk about balance.

"If one thing does it, then all things should do it". I hope you meant that in jest... Heal cures hitpoints, all spells should cure hitpoints. Fireball causes damage, all spells should cause damage...

I am not saying that all spells should make someone evil. I am saying that if we choose to start making spells affect alignment, then let's balance it out. Since we have damage spells, then there are healing spells to balance out. One takes away hp, the other gives it. One spell takes away alignment points, the other gives alignment points. This is pretty simple. My argument is valid, because of the precedent that Everybody just illustrated.

[snarf]

I am not saying that all spells should make someone evil. I am saying that if we choose to start making spells affect alignment, then let's balance it out. Since we have damage spells, then there are healing spells to balance out. One takes away hp, the other gives it. One spell takes away alignment points, the other gives alignment points. This is pretty simple. My argument is valid, because of the precedent that Everybody just illustrated.

Err, so you're saying we need a spell that takes hp away from the caster, gives it to the mob, and then either raises the align of the caster (or the mob ) by 20

[Stars]

I am not saying that all spells should make someone evil. I am saying that if we choose to start making spells affect alignment, then let's balance it out. Since we have damage spells, then there are healing spells to balance out. One takes away hp, the other gives it. One spell takes away alignment points, the other gives alignment points. This is pretty simple. My argument is valid, because of the precedent that Everybody just illustrated.

Err, so you're saying we need a spell that takes hp away from the caster, gives it to the mob, and then either raises the align of the caster (or the mob ) by 20

Why would this be necessary? Only one aspect of a spell has been changed, an alignment affect. That same aspect, and only that one aspect, should be applied in more than one direction. Right now, there are only spells that cause a person to become more evil to cast. I am not saying this a bad idea. I'm just saying that if it must be done, then it should be balanced. Curing someone else's hp should make alignment go higher. BUT, there are some gray areas here...

What if a person uses Energy drain to kill an "evil" monster? The good elf (which supposedly includes the vast majority of elves in D&D) actually changes that evil power into a force for good. And so, Energy drain should raise alignment, not lower it. On the other hand, a healing spell that restores hp to an "evil" player so they can go out and kill more good creatures should lower alignment.

Here's another example of what I'm trying to say. Giving fire to a cold person is a good thing. Giving fire to a person that is burning alive is just plain sadistic. The act itself is neither good nor bad. The intent of the act is what is good or evil. You can't say that a wrench is bad just because it was used to bash in someone's skull. That same wrench could have been used to build an orphanage for lost children. The wrench didn't make the person bad. The person was already bad.

And so, players should not be punished for the spell they used. They should be punished for how they use it. And it already works that way. Killing a mob, no matter the method, changes alignment. Using spells should not have any further penality.

BUT, if the powers that be truly feel the need to change something that didn't need changing in the first place, then they should do it in a way that makes more sense. Balance should be returned. There is more than evil in the Realms. I'd hate to think that BR would become a game that just focuses on one perspective of things. That would get boring.

[Slart]

I believe the conceit is that there might be certain powers which are inherently evil, regardless of the ends they are used to achieve, and inexorably corrupt the wielder in ways he or she cannot control no matter how pure their intentions may be. The One Ring would be an example of this type of power. Not all magic must work that way so that some magic can, either. Did the powers wielded by Gandalf make him in and of themselves more good or more evil? No. But it was acknowledged that the Ring would indeed do just that. Perhaps energy drain and its cousins are lesser examples of that general type of power.

Does this make sense?

[Stars]

No.
The One Ring was part of Sauron, not just some random evil power. It was his evil will that made the ring, and so the ring was unique because it was linked to an evil creature's soul. There is nothing that suggests that the magical energy used to create Energy Drain is any different from any other damage causing spell. Both cause harm to an intended victim. Other than the fact that Energy Drain actually has a positive result as well, there is no real difference between the two. Heck, there's nothing to suggest that Healing spells aren't just the same as well. All of these things can be used for good or ill. Regardless, I understand that any number of arguments can be used to describe what is possible in a purely fantasy world.

This is what bothers me the most...

Balance: There is much talk around here about it. Why only evil spells? I am not suggesting that good spells HAVE to exist because evil ones do. But, gosh, doesn't that just make more sense? Do we want a balanced game or not? Or is there some new theme that Barren Realms is taking here? Is this to be a place focused purely on the darker side of fantasy? You know, I really liked the ability to play any kind of character I wanted, not to be FORCED to play an evil one. I am already FORCED to play an evil illithid if I want to enjoy its best spells. We now have a demonic race that is meant to be evil. Why not drop the alignment restrictions on our other races? At least make some races and spells that balance things out a little. I do not like the trend I am seeing.

Necessity: What was the point in the first place? It doesn't make sense. Our actions already dictate whether or not we become good, neutral or evil. The only exception to this rule are mobs that change alignment.

[SoulDrake]

I think everyone, including poor Stars, is missing the major point of both sides, so perhaps as I have just decided to pop in and read this board I can provide my take on what both sides of the arguement are and my thoughts on them.

1) Energy Drain being evil-- I agree with this no mater what the ot come. Why do I agree with this, well, let's just take a look on the argument of "What is Evil?"

1. Anything which impairs the happiness of a being or deprives a being of any good; anything which causes suffering of any kind to sentient beings; injury; mischief; harm; -- opposed to good.

2. Moral badness, or the deviation of a moral being from the principles of virtue imposed by conscience, or by the will of the Supreme Being, or by the principles of a lawful human authority; disposition to do wrong; moral offence; wickedness; depravity

etc, etc.

Now, let's take a look a just what energy drain is. You are draining the HP (life essence) of a creature and giving it to yourself. This would then be of a subschool of necromantic type spells. Basically you are taking part of what makes this target live, part of its soul if you will since we are calling it necromancy and I don't think anyone will argue with that classification for the spell. Is taking a soul morally wrong? I would think so, and I think it is in the conscious of *most people of good judgement* that it would be morally wrong to steal someone's soul in part or in whole. (Remember, evil and good are based on perspectives)

Let's compare this to say, fireball. Can fireball be considered evil? Sure, it can kill someone just as easily as energy drain can. But let's look at what fireball actually does: Summon a ball of fire. Is this action in and of itself morally wrong? Not really, you can use that fire to warm yourself, burn some dead weeds, etc, etc. That's really not important. The important thing is summoning a ball of fire is not inherently evil, whereas stealing a soul is.

Now let's look at the implementations of this: Killing a 'good' creature with energy drain should be a bad thing. 1) You are stealing that person's soul-- we can call this a bad thing. 2) you're killing someone good. Thus we should lose alignment for stealing souls and killing good people. Let's look at fireball. We summon a ball of fire (not really an evil thing) and we kill someone who is good (now, that we can call evil) so we lose alignment for killing the innocent, not for summoning a fireball. I don't think I need to beat this into the bush with the other alignment combinations and I can sufficiently say that my thoughts and presentation of this topic has been concluded.


2) What Stars is really trying to say but is to absorbed with Energy Drain to say properly-

Energy Drain and Death Field... Quivering Palm as well, are considered "evil" spells. You must be evil to cast Death Field and you become evil for using Energy Drain and Quivering Palm.

What I believe Stars is attempting to point out, is the MUD should have *good* aligned spells. Thus, spells you can only cast if you bear a good alignment or if you cast them, you gain alignment. As someone who enjoys the good alignments, I would agree with Stars on this point, however, in defense of everyone else, I agree that coming up with these types of spells would be hard. Let's take the example everyone could surely consider "Good:" healing.

As healing is something that is good, it is considered a virtue to heal the sick after all, let's look at how complicated things would have to be in order to make this work:

Healing a fellow member of good alignment-- Good thing.
Healing yourself-- Really not that "good"of a thing (neutral)
Healing someone who has just wiped out an entire villiage (hard to say. On one side, you can't let them die 'cause that would be considered bad, but you don't want to dishonor the memories of those he killed.) I will call this neutral as well to be safe.
Healing someone that's killing someone else (Evil thing-- you are aiding in an evil act-- killing.)

I only listed four, but I'm sure the situations are countless. If we are going to list them overall, I would think we would probably come up with enough good, evil and neutral responses to make healing a "neutral" ability overall. Then, look at the perspectives: A person following an evil god healing an evil teammate would be considered a good thing.

Perhaps we could implement something like "bless blade" for weapons as a spell players could do. "Bless blade" will only work on a blade that has been enchanted so that it is anti-neutral anti-evil. It will cause 150% damage to undead and otherwise "evil" aligned creatures. Right now, I believe the bless flag only affects taint. There is a thread already available on bless (the flag, that is not the spell) so I will stop there.

Of course, if you have bless blade, you should probably also make its reverse: corrupt blade.... *shrug*

Right now my creative energy is too finely spread to think of many possible spells. I cannot see "energy drain" or "death field" having exact counterparts for good alignments. Perhaps a reverse for "death field" could be "life field" which increases the max Hps of the illithid's groupmates by some factor by making the body function like it is healtheir than it really is or decreases the illithid's max HPs and shares it with his group. (this would be considered a good act...) I dunno... ^^;

SD- Dyre/Yumi + other pint sized chars...

[Divebomb]

This is why many MUDs and RPG games (video and pen/paper) you see have established a race/class/alignment system. Certain classes have access to certain spells and that combination may require them to be a certain alignment or lose their abilities.

You called energy drain a necromantic spell. I have always seen the requirement of a necromancer to be an evil character. On the other hand, I've always seen a "Sanctuary" spell to be on the good side.

Some spells cross-over, like fireball, because they do not fall under a certain alignment.

Do I agree there should be some good-only spells? Yes.
Do I think there should be spells that make you more good when you use them? Probably.
Do I think ED and QP should make you more evil when you use them? Yes, but you should have to be neutral or evil to use them in the first place as well.*

(*This would apply to the good spells too if that were taken into account)


Anyway, since we don't implement a class system, this would be a way to establish a fake one - by using more alignment based spells.

Would that be overly annoying though? I just don't know. Alignment switches back and forth really really fast in BR.

[Stars]

Sheesh, SoulDrake, why must you contradict yourself?

Spells (which are not living thinking creatures) have some sort of nature that can be evil? Energy Drain is evil in nature, regardless of its use?

The INTENT of fireball is not to warm one's self. The INTENT of fireball is to harm someone. What happened to this belief that a spell can be good or evil in nature? Why is fireball or healing (and every other spell in Barren Realms) any different than energy drain or death field? A spell that might be considered good can be used for evil and so it is not good?

Which of these things to do you believe?

Here's a loop for ya. Since you used the silly idea that fireball could be used for helpful purposes (warming a cold person LOL), then energy drain could be used for good purposes, and in a much more reasonable way. If you had read my earlier post you will recall that I said energy drain has a positive effect, one that fireball does not have. Let's say that you cast energy drain to deter a very evil creature. By taking that once evil power and transforming into a source of good hp for yourself, you are strengthening the powers of good, while simultaneously diminishing the powers of evil. This should make your alignment RISE.

Besides, how can an inanimate thing be evil or good? Energy is a tool, whether magical or eletrical. It can harm or help, depending on the use. Only a thing with a mind and a will can choose to be evil or good.

As for some imaginary necromancy school of magic, this would be fine if we actually implemented some sort of school of magic system for magic-users. Why include only one or two spells? It's not a school then, is it? Also, the magic shouldn't make a person evil. A person should be evil in order to use the magic. A good person wouldn't want to use magic in this way, and that is the ONLY reason that makes sense. And so, a good aligned player would not be able to use energy drain (or whatever necromancy spell) in the first place.

Anyway, since we don't implement a class system, this would be a way to establish a fake one - by using more alignment based spells.

Would that be overly annoying though? I just don't know. Alignment switches back and forth really really fast in BR.

Why add to this by making schools of magic that alter your alignment? That's just too easy to switch back and forth then.

Whatever we chose to do, let's do it. This in-between stuff is annoying and kind of...well...dumb.

[Divebomb]

Why add to this by making schools of magic that alter your alignment? That's just too easy to switch back and forth then.

Do I think ED and QP should make you more evil when you use them? Yes, but you should have to be neutral or evil to use them in the first place as well.*

(*This would apply to the good spells too if that were taken into account)

I already answered that question. You have to be evil in order to use the alignment based/alignment-altering spell. I included, but would not be adverse to excluding, neutral because when you're neutral you could choose to become good or evil... it would probably make neutral a little too powerful since you would have access to good, evil, and neutral spells, but whatever... it's not like the idea is fleshed out to detail anyway.