alignment affected by spells

Suggestions for additions and modifications to the existing Barren Realms code.
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Stars
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alignment affected by spells

Post by Stars »

Why does energy drain negatively affect alignment? This doesn't make sense.
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Post by xorex »

I think the reasoning is that energy drain is a dirty trick which is dishonorable to perform in a fight. When you fight someone, you and your opponent both accept that you will exchange blows to the death unless one of you runs away (which gives an exp penalty). Your opponent does not expect you to steal their hitpoints in the middle of the fight. In whatever sense you construe the ethics of "good" and "evil" in the mud (positive alignment and negative alignment), people who use energy drain during a fight are "evil."
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Post by Stars »

Evil can be defined as causing pain or harm, and energy drain doesn't do much. I still don't see a difference between killing something for hit points or killing something for xp. In either case, we are benifiting from the misery and death of something else. Casting fireball on some defenseless mob is far more evil because it does more damage to the creature. In fact, any offensive spell could be considered evil. If energy drain has to be this way, then heck, anytime we do damage with a sword for our benefit should make us more evil. We'll have a whole mud running amok with the satanic. What if the caster uses energy drain against a -1000 mob? Is it evil to destroy evil? But this last is not the main reason why energy drain shouldn't affect alignement. If no other spell affects alignment, then energy drain also should not.

Death field.

Why must we be evil to use it? For the exact same reason as I have stated above, death field doesn't need to be evil. It already has the limit on levels so why is it evil too?

It just doesn't make sense.
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Post by Everybody »

It has to do with an imposed moral/ethic code.... Making things instantly die almost certainly involves 1) questionable ethics and 2) association with some evil power. Draining life, too, works with the "evil, negative" side of the world. I'm not saying this code is correct, or is anything more than a carryover from pencil and paper rpg's, but it exists, and is built into the code. Imo, having to be evil is an acceptable drawback to being able to use a spell so ridiculously powerful as death field. Making you more evil is likewise a drawback to using energy drain (which, if you use it against mobs well below your level, you can use to crazily up your max hps).

On a sidenote, for those who didn't know, the human spell quivering palm works exactly the same as energy drain, right down to the -20 alignment per successful cast.
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Post by Comatose »

Why does this have to make so much sense? There was a decision that these spells should come from a negative source. The act itself may not be any more evil than backstabbing someone with a dagger, but the source of the magic comes from a negative source and therefore makes you more evil if you use that magic.
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Post by Divebomb »

Comatose wrote:Why does this have to make so much sense? There was a decision that these spells should come from a negative source. The act itself may not be any more evil than backstabbing someone with a dagger, but the source of the magic comes from a negative source and therefore makes you more evil if you use that magic.
I'm far more inclined to agree with this reasoning than that it's based on a code of ethics.

It is generally accepted that magic comes from some kind of "source" - that source could be another plane, it could be nature, it could be life forces, etc etc.

In these cases (and imo, there should be more), the magic comes from a source that, in harnessing the power to use as your own, (in the case of energy drain/qp) makes your alignment fall or (in the case of DF) requires you to already have established yourself as an evil creature in order to successfully handle it.

All in all... energy drain is just a crappy spell. :D
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Post by Stars »

Would it not stand to reason that healing spells would raise alignment? If there is a negative force fueling evil spells, then it makes sense to have a positive force fueling good spells. I don't mind having energy drain lower my alignment according to Comatose's logic. Using that same logic, heal and cure spells should affect alignment as well.

If there are other spells that raise alignment, what are they? I just found out recently about ED.
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Post by Divebomb »

Not if the nature of this magic is not from a positive source. If "heal" comes from a neutral source (and btw, Mother Nature is thought of as neutral, which is why most RPGs with Druids as nature-beings force them to be neutral alignment), then it would not affect alignment. If there's a spell called "Angel's Blessing" that heals, then I agree, it should make your alignment go up.
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Post by Stars »

Energy drain is not known as "Satan's Suction Cup".
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Post by xorex »

Divebomb wrote:
Comatose wrote: Why does this have to make so much sense? There was a decision that these spells should come from a negative source. The act itself may not be any more evil than backstabbing someone with a dagger, but the source of the magic comes from a negative source and therefore makes you more evil if you use that magic.

I'm far more inclined to agree with this reasoning than that it's based on a code of ethics.
yeah, i like that explanation alot, but, db, if you are talking about "good" and "evil" don't you have to be using a code of ethics on some level?
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Post by Divebomb »

Not really, for the exact reason as stated above.

I've never heard of a code of ethics that says killing is ok, especially slaughter without reason. This is exactly what happens in this game. We run around and beat the bejeezus out of everything in sight for no reason besides experience. Why should this raise and lower alignment? We're the one doing the bad thing all the time.

I prefer to think of alignment as a range of paths of life. One path offers a certain type of choices - equipment, spells, etc. Another path offers a different set. Sometimes things (non-alignment restricted equipment, most spells, etc) cross paths. It has nothing to do with what is "good" or "bad", "right" or "wrong". I could easily create an undead mob that is "good aligned" but that doesn't mean it doesn't have bad intentions, it just means that mob is more oriented to what the realm of "good" involves.

IMO, you could rename good and evil to donuts and croutons if you want to. My viewpoint still makes sense.

There have been proposals for reworks of races that have restrictions based on alignment. The variety in those races isn't necessarily "GOOD" versues "NEUTRAL" versus "EVIL". It's just that given a particular alignment, the race has a mastery over a certain set of spells because those spells originate from a "school" that encompasses that alignment. This is what happens with ED and DF.
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Post by Faustus »

You know, I kinda wish there were a spell called "Satan's Suction Cup"...
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Post by Stars »

I have nothing against the idea of different "schools" of magic. It just seems odd that only one side is represented in Barren Realms. My point is that if there is going to be evil spells, then some good spells should be made to balance it all out nicely. I can understand Divebomb's view of good and evil. Even so, all sides of the coin should be represented here.

Spell: Satan's Suction Cup
Alignment: not good
Mana cost: two pennies
Description: The ground erupts as a giant hand-held vaccum rises from the depths of the abyss. Tightly held within the crimson-clawed fist of the Lord of Hell himself, it positions itself above its intended victim. As a taloned finger flicks the "on" switch, the earth moans in torment and all life within the room is suddenly sucked into the maw of the massive vaccum cleaner. Then the hand flicks another switch as mortal souls are deposited into a neat little cup for convenient storage.
Effects: everyone dies...horribly. The End.

The Good counterspell: ...hold on...heaven is offline right now...please try back again later
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Post by Slart »

Perhaps, if you'll permit me an anachronism, we can look at it like the Force in Star Wars.

There wasn't anything that made a Jedi "good." They just had to BE good. On the other hand, there WERE things that even a well-meaning Jedi could do that would "turn" him or her to the Dark Side, like killing the Emperor or shooting that funky-cool lightning from your hands, or getting married to Natalie Portman. Maybe energy drain and death field are like those things.

Of course, believing in that sort of thing results in awfully passive-aggressive behavior, like lying on the floor and whining like a little lost puppy until your dad does the dirty work for you, because, hey, he's already evil...But I digress...
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Post by Comatose »

Stars, I would have absolutely no problem agreeing with you if you weren’t so condescending. It would be wonderful if there were some spells that affected alignment for good. I don't know of one and I am afraid to say one doesn't exist because DB may just pull one out of that brain of his and prove me wrong. My point is you are right. It would be much easier to say if you were a little less patronizing when you make a suggestion.
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