Continents

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Continents

Post by Everybody »

Another repost from the old boards, this involved (builder-side) working a new continent into the realms. Specifics debated included:
  • How to get to the continent: walkable, have to "take a boat" (a mob spec, essentially), using word of recall (to give it a use as well as limit levels that could get there).
  • What sorts of areas would be there: foreign in tone, more puzzle-oriented, simply more difficult.
  • Other considerations: personalization of items, magical entrance (i.e. teleporting there), selling items from one continent on the other (would it give a bonus because of being "foreign/exotic"), what else could you find there?
I think that mostly covers what we went over in the old forums, although I'm sure that's not every option that could be considered. I'll add here the options (for the "what else could you find" question) that I feel apply: should things like Faustus's elemental reworking of magic go in, or the human guildmaster suggestion (from Slart), this continent would be a great place to put those out-of-the-way hermits that teach those rare, fancy spells (or styles).
Last edited by Everybody on Tue Jan 21, 2003 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Anakin »

Considering the option that the continent will be divided by oceans, I think fly shouldn't be allowed for people to cross from one continent to another.

This is really my cousin's suggestion but whatever... he said that we can probably have a "speak" command. It can be added with the 'foreign' style of the continents. The citizens on one continent can speak a different language and normal characters couldn't understand it. In order for them to understand the language, they have to reside in the continent for a couple of days (or years?) to learn their language. Now the speak command works like a skill. It goes up by percentage and eventually you can actually understand the language and you can probably speak it (speak <foreign language> <your message>), it will appear messed up on others but to the native speakers and to the other people that already learned the language it is just as simple as english.

(Kind of like how a certain type of race can understand what they are uttering when casting spells and the other races can't)
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Post by Everybody »

The idea of the speak command (foreign languages) has been raised before (specifically as racial languages) and has always been turned down, as we specifically want to not segregate people in any way. Speaking a separate language is quite easily the best way to segregate people around, so, although interesting (since other people could eventually learn it), I doubt it would go in.
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Post by disaster »

i think continents are an interesting idea, and with that, or even without it, i think that the word of recall spell should be changed to accept an argument, such as "cast 'word of recall' (city name)", to allow instantaneous transport to the temple altar of any of the principle cities of the realms. It would be a really nice way to make w.o.r. useful for once.
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a new continent

Post by DevilsAngel »

I love the idea of a seperate continent. I think it would give us a great usage of a port city maybe, we could have a ferry that went to the continent there. Maybe the WOR spell to use for that as well, but isn't the idea :idea: to make it more of a challenge? If you could "recall" to any temple then that would take away some of the challenge, however it is true that it is a rather useless spell. *shrugs*

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Continents

Post by Lairian »

The main argument against continents, if I remember corretly, was the potential loss of community involved in having a single recall. However, I'd like to premptivly urge against such thought. In my experience, there is a larger sense of community and communication through the chat channel, shout channel, and such. Very little is done at recall, in my opinion, other than drunken sleep and the brandishing of narrow wooden rods.
I think that Calathar and the mortal areas, at least, are becoming silly...there is just simply too much off of single roads going in cardinal directions. It feels, in my opinion, very artificial...kind of like how cities in SimCity and such look artificial. Without a bit of chaos, nothing will feel organic and natural, it will FEEL like a computer simulation, which is the last thing we really want for immersive muding.
Alternate continents would allow like areas to be grouped, and thus give each continent a unique "feel", such as dark gothic (Coven, Moria, Blood Swamp), primative (Western Woods, Jungle, Hunting Grounds, Great Desert), or holy (White Tower, Temple of White Lotus, Perelandra, possably Calathar?). Sure, most of the time you'd see variation, but it would allow for great tracks to come under a certain feel, blending areas rather than a feel of sharp contrast when you move from one to the other. To see, this, run off to Hunting Grounds and see the blending between Hobgoblin War Camp, Haunted Mannor, and the Tropical Forest (kudos, Faustus). This feel is critical to smooth immersive playing. I cannot stress enough that we should stay away from the practice of lengthening the, say, west road out from Calathar and adding another south; much better to add transitions at random points on the boundies of areas with like feels and just smaller level ranges, to keep small people from wandering from a 5 15 area directly into a 30 40 (at least without proper warning in room descriptions). Grouping areas by feel to continents would help this allong, in my opinion. Maybe that's because I'm an organization nut...
As an aside as to accomplishing this, I'd like to say I believe that Calathar could still be the center, a prime city/nexus at the middle from with different aspects of reality/potential are reachable, giving it a feel of center in a universe of posibilities. Dropping to a lower fantasy from that, it would be easy to have a normal, historic continent with Calathar at the center (note that certain rooms in Calathar break feel in this, such as the corner store and confuse me), with posabilities of boat travel to, say "the dark contenent of Brath'ur" or "the wild contenent of Gareth".

Just my 2 gp, and opinion.
I could be wrong.
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Post by Everybody »

I don't see any real problems in what you've said except one thing you may've overlooked: that reassociating these areas into different continents would be a massive overhaul of the area organization as a whole. Now, that's not necessarily a bad thing, but we have to look at the disadvantages as well as the advantages (which you pointed out very nicely). One: people are going to get lost - their paths will no longer work, they'll be looking in entirely the wrong spot to try and find the areas they're looking for, and disparate areas (currently) will connect in close(r) proximity. Also not a bad thing, but it'll be a disruption. Two: the actual amount of work to remake all the connections, as well as form a cohesive plan as to how they all connect, leaving room for extension, and writing in new "connective only" areas (currently, The Barren World). This is the selling point - is the work worthy of it. I would say yes, but not now. I very much admire Faustus's skill in blending areas into each other (and you chose a wonderful example for it), and I agree that dangerous areas (especially those that're immediately dangerous) should be a bit farther from the beaten path. However, I don't think a total overhaul is of immediate benefit - individual areas can be moved, and gradually we'll get to the point where it's something like you described: not jarringly different each time you move from one area to another. But it won't be as focused as many might like.
Sorry for rambling on for so long.
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Point

Post by Lairian »

Well, the first thing I'd like to state is that I rather dislike move triggers in gereral, mostly because I've been passed up on multiple occasions by characters in what I like to call "bot mode", an affliction sadly common near, say, the thieves' forest. However, I accept them as an evil I can do nothing about. Also, I strongly believe that within a week, the slew of level 50 characters that hide in the lands of mortals to pass unimmly amounts of gold and toys onto lower level characters will have found new paths to the silver bracer, the thievs' forest, and to portraits. I do have to admit to a certain hypocracy here, which I'll put straight out on the front as a matter of honesty; I'm an elf, and use teleport to accomplish most of my needs after I've walked to an area once, which may bias my opinion of pathing.
On similar note, I would like to have astral, summon, track, and teleport nerfed to only work on mobs on the same contenent. If that's a code problem, which I assume it is as I'd have programed it without a check anywhere 'cause I'm lazy, I understand, and would easily live without it.
On the subject of work on "connection only areas", I understand it's a large task and would take a long time. For those of you who don't know, I'm working on an area now, which has been sitting at 90% done for a few months now (school owns me at the moment, it was at 80% at the end of summer break). I'd like to have people preview that when it's done, and get an opinion. If everyone likes it, I'll gladly volunteer to come up with some rough connection zones for this project. If this is not the case, I'll be quiet and back off. I cannot stress enough that I would LOVE to see this idea get off the ground.
Yes, such a project involves a scope of possably years to get off the ground. I love this mud and its community, and am willing to work to better it. I understand it's a drastic change and it will annoy people. We might have to throw it up for a week for people to play with, and vote after, possably to have it voted down and the work go to waste. I do believe that the idea is worth that risk.
All else fails, I'd be the only one to lose time on it, as code for autopioleted vehicles already exists (Jenny's tour bus).

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Post by Divebomb »

Just an FYI, all areas are pre-tested by at least one member of the the Area Building team (myself, Everybody, Faustus, and Kiri). It's set up on a test port so you can see any mistakes that may have been made and for us to see if there have been any balancing issues. You are welcome to submit as many changes to that test area as you like, we'd rather see it done right the first time than interrupt the real game twenty times for fixes (which if you still find problems after it's been put in for real you can fix of course - i've had that happen lots of times).

If you have questions about the process, send me a tell or email me.
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Post by AMystery »

I like the idea of another continent but I don't think we should move any of the existing areas, at least not until they are redone. I think the new continent should be designed from the ground up as such. I think it would also let us close off an area of the mud for a quest, especially if there was an easy way to disable access to the continent. I can actually see continents growing around specific area builders. As I think about it I see a very dark, dangerous Divebomb continent:) A more wooded tropical Faustus continent. I am slowly working on an area that I think could be the start of a new land mass. Its based on Lost World so there are dinos and hidden areas and things like that. its very early in development though.

I don't think having other continents would harm the community, in fact I think it would strengthen it. It would give a broader range of experiences so that people could actually talk about things that happen in the mud and areas they've explored. Diversity is a good thing in general. I at least think its worth exploring, perhaps by adding one continent and seeing how its used and what impact it has. Its possible that if its detrimental then eventually a land bridge forms and it gets merged back into the normal realms.
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Post by Stars »

If new continents were added, then I would prefer to have access to them from oceans on all sides. The distance should be great, or have random directions in the intercontinental waters (maybe some nasty sharks and lurking monsters too). If someone were to travel north far enough across an ocean, then eventually they would reach another land mass; the same for east, west and south. This would give Barren Realms a more spherical feel.
I would love to see someone create a beautiful map or globe of the world when all is said and done.

It is not a bad idea to put the more challenging areas into the new continent, but the treasures should be more as well. In the main continent, the areas could be easy, but the eq less appealing. This might require some changes that not everyone would be happy about. But to make the really great items easy to get is just wrong. The best treasures are guarded. You get what you stick your neck out for.

An alternate recall might not be a good idea, at least in the way that the one in calathar works. One could make the argument that access to the "advanced" continent should require effort. On the other hand, another recall may not be such a bad idea if used as a "battle recall" or a place to appear after death. I realize that this might be confusing to newbies, but there are a few ways to get around that problem, including a level limit that determines where one appears after death or from battle. I am kind of on the fence with this subject. Part of me wants a normal functional recall in a key city of a continent on the other side of the world. Only one new recall on one other continent, not every city (or future city) in the Realms.

As for altering connections of the areas that now exist, I am all for it. Let's organize the whole mud! I rarely use paths anyway. Aod might have a heartattack, but some nice mapmakers might be able to help him out. (Perhaps a generic topographical map of the world might be a good idea before this project is started.)

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Post by Anakin »

Having a challenge to get to another continent would also be great. I just have a suggestion (if this is going to work) that our oceans shouldn't be passable. The idea of having word of recall to work might get ugly if they can just fly through the water. Just my thought though.
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Post by DevilsAngel »

ok, but why COULDN'T you fly over the water. I mean, if you can fly, what is to stop you logically from flying over the water? It doesn't make sense to not be able to unless you come up with something logical for it not working. Maybe a hurrican consistantly brews in a spot or somthing that takes them back to the old continent each time they try to fly over the ocean? *shrugs* I don't know the answer but I do know it should be logical.
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Post by Anakin »

Someone once mentioned to me that not every mud is logical but we can probably have more better things to do than to fly (make a harbor so we can sail through the ocean, word of recall, etc..). IMO, it is not logical but adds some more spice to the game.
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Post by Slart »

I've let this go too long; there's too much to address here in a little forum post. Anyway, here goes:

1) I'm not in favor of changing word of recall in any way. There's already too much teleport/track/astral going on and not enough walking. I certainly do not want to dilute the value of those three skills by improving word of recall, which is available to almost every race (illithid being the only one that doesn't get one of the other three zippy-zap skills). I've read the arguments, and I respect a lot of the people who've made them, but I just don't believe there's anything wrong with word of recall and its current role as a relic of a bygone era in mudding kept around for comic relief.

2) As far as I'm concerned, there is, and ever shall be, one and only one mortal recall point. Period. That said, something I *might* consider in a continent setting -- especially if the place is going to be hard to reach -- is a separate death dropoff point. Note the emphasis on "might."

3) I'm not a big fan of realism for realism's sake when it comes to mudding, but I do believe Lairian has a point about our area layout. That said, I am not really in favor of moving around existing areas; I think continuity is more important. I think that if we are going to change our layout to get a more "organic" feel, it's something that would best be done very slowly, one new area at a time, as we replace old areas. Also, I believe that there are some reasons why new areas are most often hooked up through "connector" areas, though I have to confess I don't know exactly what they all are.

4) If we're going to create a new continent, I think the idea someone mentioned about having to take a boat to get there is a good one. I think it should be fairly inconvenient to get there, to make it more difficult to jet back and forth from the continent to the mainland for supplies. If the areas on the continent are going to be good and interesting and dangerous, we shouldn't let people teleport back and forth to and from Alandra for healing every five minutes. :wink: As for why you couldn't fly there, what if the ocean was a 100x100 randomized exits area, to simulate disorientation from not being able to see land?
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