additional affects of flaming items

disaster · Post by **disaster** » Sat Feb 01, 2003 1:55 am

maybe this is already being done. for spells such as blindness, etc, which don't do damage, how about if flaming items add a certain percentage (maybe not as high as 5, but something) to the chance that the spell works. it seems to make sence to me, get the power from the flaming gear, better chance the spell works.

Anakin · Post by **Anakin** » Sat Feb 01, 2003 6:43 am

I think they work just fine. Druids and elves are already powerful with the flaming tag. I guess if they make flaming weapons even better, it will unbalance the realms.

Everybody · Post by **Everybody** » Sat Feb 01, 2003 3:42 pm

I actually wouldn't mind seeing the flaming tag also affect a mob's chance of saving against a spell. Probably at a (much) lower amount than it affects damaging spells, but any slight bonus would be neat.

Divebomb · Post by **Divebomb** » Sat Feb 01, 2003 3:42 pm

I think the idea behind flaming is that it's a magical flame that feeds the power of the user. That power is used to enhance strength not quality or accuracy of a spell.

disaster · Post by **disaster** » Sun Feb 02, 2003 11:57 am

well, that sakes sense to me as well, but i think that being more powerful would make it more difficult for the mob to resist the affects of spells like blindness. the chance for the spell to succeed/fail should still be based purely on skill% and wis, but given that the spell connects, a higher power reserve from magical flaming items should contribute to a harder savethrow for the mob to make against the spell

Divebomb · Post by **Divebomb** » Sun Feb 02, 2003 9:04 pm

Not if it only fuels damage power as opposed to success power. Even now the chance of a mob to save v spell against your damage spell remains the same. So consider your blindness having the chance of doing more damage... it's just there's no more damage to be done than blind!

Stars · Post by **Stars** » Sun Feb 02, 2003 10:53 pm

Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes!
Flaming eq should increase the effectiveness of ALL spells. Let me repeat myself. Ahem...Flaming eq should increase the power of ALL spells! If the ones who are against this believe that the eq is meant for offense only, then would you claim that blindness, faerie fire, poison, curse, weaken, sleep, and similar spells are defensive in nature? It is just wrong to see a "perfect match" (or lower) mob save against spells. This should rarely happen. Imagine the embarrassment of a skilled mage who fails to blind that "easy kill" mob 1millionzillion times in a row? Of course the mage may not live long enough to be embarrassed.
It may be that damage is all that flame affects right now, but it needs to be changed.
If you are afraid that it will make elves and druids too powerful, then let us compare them to the fighter races. The bonus to damage make some of the elf spells better, but in a way shackles the casters. Elves are chained to magic as their only hope in a fight, which means they are chained to MANA. Mana runs out quickly. When an elf fades away and needs to rest, a dwarf can keep plugging along. If an elf goes hard core magic, then the hit/dam of flame eq is terrible. I like the idea of little physical power, but extreme magical power. This makes sense. An elf with his head in a book all day has no time to be an effective swordsman, just as a dwarf swinging an axe all day has no time to study magic.
Druids at least get sanc and heal. What do elves have?
Fireball and........hold on..........oh yeah, a buch of mana wasters.
Don't get me wrong here. Remember that ALL spell effectiveness should be enhanced with the eq, even the strength of cure spells.
Let us make having flaming eq worth the effort. It is not as if a dwarf has to hunt all over the Realms just to practice enhanced damage.

-Stars
(I'm not trying to pick on the dwarves. I love all our races. The dwarves just seem to embody the classic all-out fighter.)

disaster · Post by **disaster** » Sun Feb 02, 2003 11:10 pm

just an idea, to see what everyone thinks of it, but what if there were more than one type of enflamed flag? there could be the standard red flame, which boosts spell damage, a white flame which would boost the affect of healing spells and/or the affective level of spells like bless, etc, a blue flame that would increase the difficulty a mob has saving against the spell, etc....the details would have to be worked out, but i like the idea of different types of magical power being derived from different types of flaming items. flaming items could either be written to be a certain colour flame, or when the item repops a random colour of flame could be assigned

Everybody · Post by **Everybody** » Mon Feb 03, 2003 3:07 am

Ahem. "Elves get fireball and... a bunch of mana wasters?" I believe acid blast should be included in there. Especially at high levels, it does extremely good damage.
Now, to the main point. Fixing the flaming code was a step in the right direction. Elves can solo fairly effectively (yes, flaming eq is worth the effort) with it. Yes, they're still tied to mana, but with their spells doing up to 280% of their normal damage (that'd be with a full set of flaming eq, which is possible to get), they're much less tied to it now than they were before. Sure, their hit/dam sucks, but the extra spell damage from flaming more than compensates. After all, they get parried and dodged just as badly as kender and dwarves do. However, they are still tied to that mana requirement, and I certainly (as I said earlier) wouldn't mind all of their spells getting upgraded via flaming.
This said, I actually like Disaster's idea about the different color flames, either as randomly determined, or as actual separate bits that builders can use.

Divebomb · Post by **Divebomb** » Mon Feb 03, 2003 8:28 am

Re: Stars
Elves and druids can hit any mob any level with their spells. Humans can hit a little bit with their autoattacks, and dwarves are just plain screwed once you get beyond 3 levels above them. They don't really need to be enhanced any more.

If you don't want to spend the time recovering mana, don't play a caster, plain and simple. Every RPG game i've ever played has required a player to sleep (Baldur's Gate series) hundreds of times or re-memorize spells, or get drunk/sleep (BR). It's the way of a mage, suck it up or get out. Just because you can't power-mud an elf and get 14 levels in 30 minutes doesn't mean they need to be enhanced.

"Druids get sanc and healing." As if there aren't a billion different sanc and healing items floating around BR that every race can't obtain a plethora of the items.

My elf manages to blind perfect matches just about every time, nevermind the easy kills. Maybe you didn't read those books your nose was in quite well enough.

Nobody ever claimed faerie fire, poison, blindness were defensive spells, but they are NOT damage spells.

BTW, have you SEEN an elf with a full set of flaming equipment? Holy crap. A level 40 elf discombobulating every other hit, attempting twice a round, against a mob 10 levels above them!

Re: Disaster
I think the different flames is actually a pretty neat idea. Would add a little classism to the races - are you a healing druid, a damage druid, etc. Same for elves.

What if there was a different form of regen than alcohol? Something no more obnoxious than bouncing off walls but worked even better?

Stars · Post by **Stars** » Mon Feb 03, 2003 10:48 am

This is what I wrote,

"If the ones who are against this believe that the eq is meant for offense only, then would you claim that blindness, faerie fire, poison, curse, weaken, sleep, and similar spells are defensive in nature?"

My question was meant to illustrate a point. I am trying to understand the clinging attachment to damage . It was my hope that "damage" spells might instead be referred to as "offensive" spells so that you would have a clear idea of my argument. Apparently I was misunderstood.
Speaking of damage...
A level 40 does not discombobulate every other spell. It does happen, even with the occasional damp, but there are far more casts that result in much lower damage. I can only assume that is because mobs save all the time.
But that is not the real problem; the real problem is that we are too concerned about damage. Why do we equate damage with power? That is not what power is. A better definition of power would be magical energy(for all spells). In real life, do we refer to power as that which electrocutes people, or the stuff that lights a light bulb or powers our computers? Damage is not power. Damage is only one possible result of power use. Energy is power.
We are both exaggerating, Divebomb, about the consistency of our blindness spells. My elves have never missed 1millionzillion times in a row, of course, but they fail far too often. I often miss many(5 or more) times in a row against perfect matches. My spell % is at max, and wisdom is at 22. This should NEVER happen!
Magic is supposed to be a power beyond the mundane fighter. Very rarely (to the point that it seems like never) should a spell fail against a non-magic enemy. Only higher levels should be able to resist. Even so, blindness and the like should be effective up to five levels above the caster. When I say effective, I mean that it should happen the majority of time. 50% against perfect matches is just wrong!!!
Elves and Druids are the MASTERS of magic, not bumbling fools spouting gibberish. They should also have a naturaly higher save vs spell than mobs or other races. Flame eq should increase this even more. Also, flaming eq should increase the success rate of all magic power.

Yes, druid spells can be found in other forms accessible to all races. What is your point, exactly? Many elf spells can be found in scroll form or wands and staves. My point was that druids do not have to go anywhere to use these awesome spells. They can cast healing spells during combat! Potions and pills are knocked from hands. Druids have an advantage over elves because of the strength and ease of their spells. There are also rarely any consequences when a druid fails to cast them. It is my understanding that Druid magic is healing and defensive in nature, while Elf magic is offensive. This is the way it should be. I am not bemoaning the fact that elves are not druids. I am bemoaning the imbalance that separates elves from all other races.
Elves need to be able to use their spells effectively.

Let me make another suggestion.
If blind, weaken, faerie fire (etc.) are not improved, then make it so mobs can not attack invisible casters. Only see invis mobs should be able to detect them in order to attack. They can miss blindness 1millionzillion times in a row, using up most of their mana, but at least they will eventually blind that darn thing before losing most of their hp in the process.
I do not like this idea as much, because spell casters are still bumbling fools, but at least it doesn't make the "mana wasters" quite so useless.

A solution MUST be found for the benefit of the game.

-Stars

(I know that acid blast is useful, but fireball sounds nice. Since elves cannot cast them both at the same time, they are basically the same thing. During mortal levels, acid blast seems to have more consistency, while fireball has a wider range of damage. Besides, I didn't want to make a long sentence by typing every useful elf spell (invis, fly, stone skin, shield etc). I also purposely exaggerated to make a point. I thought it was obvious.)

Eviene · Post by **Eviene** » Mon Feb 03, 2003 11:59 am

I don't really understand why flaming would be indicative of more accuracy of spells... you shoot a flaming arrow- it does more damage but does it increase the possibility you hit the target? No.

Secondly, as an elf my first time around, I found that fireball was good until I hit the hero levels, and following that, i consistently used acid blast and found that I successfully finished fights much faster than using fireball. I could be wrong, but for chosing a casting character as my first, I think I avatared relatively fast and fights were exciting. Blindness, as well, was a key spell, and I rarely failed unless I was fighting a mob that was way too large for me that I probably shouldn't have fought in the first place. As an elf and a caster, I never felt like a bumbling fool, but that I chose a race that was a bit more of a challenge to play.

disaster · Post by **disaster** » Mon Feb 03, 2003 2:08 pm

ok, i had to run from my last post before i could get it completely finished, so here's a list of all the different affects i think flaming eq should be able to give. i'm leaning preferentially towards saying that the flaming eq should be randomized in affect when it repops, since if there are all these different types of affect, the potential power gain is sufficiant to justify making it more difficult to get that "perfect" piece of eq that you want with the correct type of flame. also, i think that determining what type of flame is placed on an item should be a very speciallized task, and should only be available from a thesius-type mob for a sufficient fee. if you don't want to pay, you just have to take your chances what affect you'd be getting. anyways, here's the list i've come up with so far:
-damage increasing (the current affect)
-chance of mobs saving decreasing
-effective level of the spell increasing
-mana cost of the spell decreasing
-provide a chance that the between spell lag for oog spells doesn't happen
-create a *small* chance of a random spell being cast in battle
-effectiveness of healing spells increasing
-give a *small* chance that the spell the mob casts against you is reflected, like a mini MB for spells
-give an effective %boost to the skill of the spell (thus less fails and/or misfires?)
-provide a chance that the spell the mob casts on you is instead absorbed, and adds to your current mana (possibly also dependant on save vs spell, not just the flaming items by themselves?)
-increasing mana regeneration rate
-increasing the maximum target level for spells like summon, teleport, astral
-"fake", "tainted", or "corrupt" flames that do the opposite of any of the above flaming affects (explainable as an interpherence pattern between the caster's natural power reserves and that generated by the item, making it more difficult to maintain the existing power level)
-align restricted flames, where the level or the affect taken from the flaming item depends on how closely the caster matches the given align (and if too far away in align, acts as a fake flame as above)
-weather affecting flames, slowly causing the weather to either become better or worse
-spell affect items, contributing the affect of spells such as bless, combatmind, giant str, etc at low levels, but allowing these to stack with affects in the affects list

now, i'm not totally convinced that all these ideas would be reasonable concepts, some would probably be either too powerful or far too annoying (for example, 5 characters on who are wearing conflisting sorts of change weather flames), but this is the list of all the ones i came up with. please feel free to comment on them/add any more of your own

Lairian · Post by **Lairian** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 3:23 pm

Stars, while I see merit in your idea, think of game balance! The current flaming I agree with; it was needed. At 26 to 30 I had to level off of easy kills. Taking on a perfect match 40% of the time involved fleeing at least once (if you think I'm exagerating ask Leiland or Paladinkain if he's still around; I'm not). Now, with the advent of flaming code working, I can discombob lucky and laughing mobs through sanc.

At 44, I had a one spell fight with a lucky day molasses...I recorded it for posterity...it involved a ball streaking from my finger, EXPLODING, and the fireball **** 'SPLODIES **** ing the pool, and the pool being DEAD. One round, and I gained 100k+ exp for it. Add one single bit more effect to flames, and balance goes right out the window!

As to colored flames, as long as all flames have no more than one effect, it would be interesting, I'll admit. However, I'd say that the only ones I'd really be interested in having for effectiveness would be damage and level increases on spell effect. Frankly, think about it. My equipment gives circa 250% damage; for mana conservation to help me out, I'd need it to drop the cost to like 5 mana to counterbalance the damage loss...even then I'd take damage over effiency...more damage NOW means less damage to me as the mob beats on my squishy elfie body with only hyperexcited hydrogen atoms protecting me.

As for the relection/absorbtion...I wouldn't take it 'cause my luck on a scale of 1 to 10 is about 2 or 3. I'm sure, however, that someone who could clean out Vegas would appreciate them. ^-^

My 2 gold, take it or leave it, or kill a pool of molasses and glean 4000 times that.

disaster · Post by **disaster** » Wed Feb 05, 2003 11:10 pm

your reasons for not liking those ideas are the same reasons i do like them. i don't think that ALL flaming eq should be amazingly good-some should have less desireable affects, and thus create a need to try over and over again to get the really good stuff